NYC Half Marathon Update: NYRR Want Your Questions!

After the NYC Half debacle yesterday, Sean @ NYRR reached out to me this morning. The good news is they recognize that people are angry, and have reached out to my blog and a couple of others here in NY to try and get a dialog going with the community. Hey, it's not going to change what happened yesterday, but it's a start, right?

They'd like to know three things:

1) Your general thoughts/complaints about the process yesterday.

2) Specific actionable ideas on what they could they do better next time.

3) What questions for Mary Wittenberg & NYRR do you have about the organization of the half?

This is an opportunity to get your questions in front of NYRR leadership: Sean's committed to getting your questions and comments directly in front of Mary Wittenberg. I'd encourage you to take advantage: complaining is all well and good, but if we get the opportunity to have our complaints listened to, we should take it.

My 2c: as far as I'm concerned, this is about more than just the NYC Half, it's an opportunity to show Mary and the rest of the NYRR leadership that they should be involved with a ongoing dialog with their local community. A chance to show them that our gripes are legitimate gripes about how the organization interacts with its New York constituents and not just a bunch of people who got left out in the cold whining.

I have my own ideas on each of the above of course, but I'll leave those to another post :)

So - do please leave your questions/thoughts for NYRR in the comments below.

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over 1 year ago Amy responded:

I think everyone's main problem with the process yesterday is that it was a bait and switch. It was announced as a lottery, when in fact, it was three lotteries. It seems everyone who was not in the "NYC local" pool got in just fine.

As for next time, I'd get rid of all this "the NYC Half should be an international event" nonsense. New Yorkers (and to a lesser extend, Jerseyans) are the ones out there at 8am to run a 15k on a Sunday in 20 degree temperatures. They are the ones who should be rewarded with a chance to run the NYC Half, if that's their desier.

over 1 year ago Christy Johnson (Facebook) responded:

1) Your general thoughts/complaints about the process yesterday: This was not a transparent process, nor was it a true lottery, since there were three applicant pools. It seems that New Yorkers had the lowest odds of getting in. Why? And why weren't we told ahead of time?

2) Specific actionable ideas on what they could they do better next time: a) Answer the above questions months before the race. b) Don't keep delaying the lottery drawing. It's hard to design a training plan properly.

3) What questions for Mary Wittenberg & NYRR do you have about the organization of the half?
a) Do you plan to consistently stack the odds against New Yorkers unless they get guaranteed entry by running four of the five grand prix races? If so, I'd likely lose interest altogether.
b) How many slots do you reserve for charity runners?

Thanks!

over 1 year ago Celine responded:

I think that they should have a separate lottery pool for members of NYRR who run a specific number of races in the year. They should show some loyalty to the people who support them in races that aren't as prestigious. It's appalling how many loyal NY runners were shut out of this event.

over 1 year ago Andy responded:

This is going to come across as a wild idea, how how about a capped lottery? If they have to keep the segmented lottery pools, then fine, but if they know they have 4000 (just making up a number) places reserved for local runners, then once they've received, let's say, 12000 entries, they should declare that the lottery is closed for local entrants. That way, everyone who's been accepted as a lottery entrant know that they have at least a reasonable chance of success, and everyone else can save their processing fee, and go and find themselves a different race to run, rather than waiting for weeks/months on what they'll later learn was an almost non-existent chance of getting in...

over 1 year ago Joe responded:

Also, regarding the January 15th "second lottery", I think that's leading people on. Most, if not all of the other Spring Half Marathons that go on in March will be long closed by then.

over 1 year ago Idiot Runner responded:

Thanks everyone, good stuff. Keep 'em coming.

And Joe - I agree with you about the second lottery. Furthermore I think it was a big mistake to announce it as a 'maybe'. Now if it doesn't happen, they'll be the bad guys again, which is a shame. Setting themselves up for failure.

over 1 year ago Jo B responded:

I think the NY half is as the name suggests,a half marathon for NY,therefore local people should be given 1st dibs to run in their local race,especially if you are a menber of NYRR.As a couple of the other comments said,we were out there supporting the less prestigious races all year,and should therefore be rewarded with the chance to run "the big one"I understand that NY is a tremendous city,that many want to experience,but locals should not be penalised for living in or near the greatest city in the world!Everyone I'e spoken to so far didn't get in(myself included)and I'd already started my training,so I feel very disappointed.
I didn't realise that the lottery was in fact 3,so therefore the odds are always going to be stacked against the locals,as that section is going to have the largest number of applicants.That makes no sense whatsoever...a lottery is a lottery,it should just be the one.

over 1 year ago Rose responded:

Clearly how the lottery was run was changed this year. It went from being one pool of applicants, where every applicant had an equal shot, to 3 pools. As you are well aware from the lottery results, this massively reduced the number of NYC residents that were accepted and massively increased the number of international and national applicants. I understand this change was to make the race a more "world-class" event, but the way this lottery was run was very off-putting to your NYRR members who run multiple races a year and are loyal supporters of the organization. It seems NYRR no longer belongs to New York. But it is now just an organization that is trying to make a name for itself and promote it's larger events while alienating it's "bread and butter" - the NYC residents that run the smaller races in the rain or snow. I thought NYRR was a non-profit? Clearly this lottery system for the NYC Marathon and now the NYC Half Marathon does not seem to benefit the actual members of the non-profit that pay their dues running the smaller races all year round?

The lottery change should have been disclaimed ahead of time. There also should have been a similar "9+1" option for the NYC Half implemented BEFORE the lottery change. The "9+1" option for the full marathon exisits because you have limited the number of local spots. It boggles my mind you didn't think about this before changing the NYC Half lottery to the same method as the NYC Marathon.

Given this "new" potential 4/5 guaranteed entry for the NYC Half, how do you justify this as a feasible solution when these races sometimes sell out quickly. (Think Brooklyn this year) If 2 Borough Half races sell out, a lot of people will be shut out of the guaranteed entry possibility. I think you need to rethink this. You could add the Colon Cancer 15k, the Ted Corbitt 15k and Grete's Gallop 1/2 marathon, to at least allow people more of a shot in case the Borough Halves sell out. Also, you need to address whether these races will count for BOTH the 4/5 and the 9+1.

over 1 year ago Marie responded:

I am a New Yorker and did not get in but three of my friends did (they are also from NY). I am so over people complaining and whining that they were not accepted to run. A couple of comments on facebook suggested that people wanted their $5 back. Are you kidding me?! When you buy a lotto ticket and you do not win do you go back to the store and ask for your dollar back? We all knew the $5 was non-refundable and it was a lottery people. Why don’t you make this all a positive experience and run for a charity to help an organization. I joined a charity and am running. How selfish can you be? Its not about you nor me. Get over yourselves people. Your comments are making us look ridiculous. Do you see people in Boston, Chicago and other well known races complain if they do not get in. What a bunch of babies.

over 1 year ago Amy responded:

@Marie... why do you care so much what other people complain about? Grow up a little. Nobody is selfish for wanting a fair lottery. If you want to spend hours of your life raising money for charity, nobody's stopping you.

over 1 year ago Idiot Runner responded:

Hi Marie - most people (whose comments I've read, certainly) are not complaining because they didn't get in, but because they feel that NYRR wasn't honest about the process. That's the core issue. I personally couldn't' give too hoots whether I got in or not, but I don't expect to be treated like an idiot by an organization that I support year round.

over 1 year ago Marie responded:

I understand @Idiot Runner what you mean. I am taken a back but all the negative comments. Just look at what @Amy responded to me when I suggested to run for charity and that I am going to waste hours. Really? As a cancer survivor what could be so much better than to help an organization raise funds. Maybe by me not getting in it is God's way of telling me to do something good. By the way I am so proud of you finishing the marathon! Way to go I have been following you and your progress Bravo!

over 1 year ago Amy responded:

@Marie... since when do "spend" and "waste" mean the same thing? You're the one who used the word waste.

over 1 year ago Mary B. Housel (Facebook) responded:

1) Your general thoughts/complaints about the process yesterday.
For one, I have been away from Twitter and Facebook, and never got an email from NYRR as to whether or not the lottery finally happened, and whether or not I got in. I have to say, now that I know about what happened, I'm extremely disappointed and surprised at the outcome. (I just checked, and neither myself or my husband were accepted- and we are in NJ, for anyone who wants to know). I have to say that I agree with a lot of people who have voiced their concerns and complaints- it doesn't seem as though it was a true lottery, there are far and away fewer people who are local, consistent NYRR members who were rejected, and it doesn't seem to matter as far as I can see if it's a NYRR NY member or NJ member- so what gives? There should be transparency, some indication of how many people of international and non-local groupings were accepted, and how many people are actually from NY/NJ who were accepted- what were the percentage of runners drawn from NY? NJ? International? Charity? Were there any bibs given out to people as a "gift" from the NYRR? If so, how many, who and why???

2) Specific actionable ideas on what they could they do better next time.
Why do a lottery at all? I think that this should be the same as any other race that the NYRR puts on- first come, first serve- and with a CAP! If you do decide to do a lottery, then spell out what the cap is, how many charity, NY, NJ, NYRR members, international runners you're allowing and just let people apply, knowing how many slots are available for wherever they fit in.

Definitely do not delay the lottery process- and make it a true, random lottery. It doesn't seem random at all- and there is a huge running community that communicates via Facebook, Twitter, and other social media- so it's not like this kind of thing can just be left go or slide. I do believe that whatever deadlines are set, the NYRR need to stick with.

I agree with some suggestions made here- that if people have actually participated in 4 out of the 5 Grand Prix Halfs, then those runners should be given priority to being selected in the lottery- reward your loyal, local NYRR members. I think that is only fair.

There should be some preference to NYRR members- we're the ones paying our dues, paying the steadily increasing costs of races, waking up early and getting to the race locations, training our tails off, running our 9+1, and supporting the NYRR. Why not show some thanks, support, gratitude, and genuine appreciation of the NYRR membership?

3) What questions for Mary Wittenberg & NYRR do you have about the organization of the half?
How were those selected for the Manhattan Half chosen? Why were things delayed in releasing that information? Why were no emails sent out to NYRR membership that the Manhattan Half lottery finally happened? What makes the Manhattan Half different than any other Half in the Grand Prix- and why is it so difficult to get into? Why wouldn't you allow people to register for this Half the same as any other NYRR race?

I also have to voice my concerns about the steady increase/jump in the cost of registration for the NYRR races- why are the costs going up? Especially considering we're in a running boom, and there are more people trying to get into races with NYRR now than ever- if there are more runners, the cost really shouldn't be going up- the registration fee should cover the cost of putting on the race, shouldn't it? Why go from $25/race to $40/race towards the end of the year? Or as the racing season gets on? Why gouge us for more race registration money, when there are plenty of runners to fill up the races and meet the cap exceedingly faster than any previous years? It seems that races are filling up much more quickly than ever before- so what gives? Are the expenses put out by NYRR hosting these events, running the NYRR, I don't know, paying people's salary and staffing- what could possibly be making these race registration fees increase so much? It makes me wonder whether or not I want to do NYRR races any more....

And seriously, having people PAY OUT rather than doing their +1 volunteering to get into the NY Marathon? Really? Isn't there any value in giving back to the running community that we're a part of? You really are hurting for money that bad for your Run For Something Better that you need to allow people to pay out rather than one measly morning of volunteering? What gives? I find that really disgusting, and don't understand the logic behind that one...

More and more I get the feeling that the NYRR is a greedy, heartless organization that is becoming more corporate and less about encouraging people to run, be fit, giving back to other runners, and being fair. I feel that NYRR needs to really look into their business model or manifest or wherever it says what the NYRR is really about, and really honestly consider if they are living up to the standards and ethics that they are supposed to be living up to.

over 1 year ago Marie responded:

@Amy my impression by reading your reply to me "spend hours of my life" came off as wasting my time. It is my life and I will spend it as I like and to imply that I grow up..what was that? I am expressing how I feel . Does that make me immature?

over 1 year ago Amy responded:

@Marie, nevermind. Whatever. Good luck raising the money!

over 1 year ago rach responded:

I mean, at the end of the day, it's just another day in a lifetime of fitness, and there are many chances to run a half marathon. that being said...there reasons why I'm upset are the following..

1)when this lottery opened in June, I was encouraged by the instructor of a nyrr running class to make sure i sign up THAT day because "you never know what they will decide to do". Then I find out the lottery will be open from June-November, which seemed a bit absurd that I dropped what I was doing that day to make sure I was signed up within the first hour registration opened. I was already annoyed off the bat, that I was active member of NYRR who has their stuff together and registered for this from day 1...when Joe from Idaho could stumble upon the site, think running is the city is "cool" and register in November right before it closed.
2) Finally the lotto closed in November. and I figured we would have results in a few days, at least before Thanksgiving. Not the case....we end up waiting an extra month.
3) When I initially found I didn't get in, I was upset at first, but I figured that's life. I didn't get really upset/annoyed until I realized what was going on...not only did NYRR members get no preference, but Joe from Idaho actually had a greater chance of getting into this race than I did. Not cool.

I know it won't happen, but I really wish it would just go back to first-come first-serve, like any other race. I know the site would likely be clogged and it will be difficult to get through, but at least the people who really want to run this race will get through. Maybe put up x amount of slots for registration, and lotto off another allocation for those who couldn't get through. If a lotto must be used, I think everyone should have an equal shot. Now after this whole mess, I bet you there will be New Yorkers using their parents or friends out of state addresses, and it's going to create even more a mess for next year.

I also don't love the 4/5 idea for guaranteed entry. I think it's great if you are training for the full marathon, and you would use these as training runs anyways. But there are alot of runners who prefer the shorter 5ks and 10ks, and will maybe race a half marathon once or twice a year max...so they are shut out of this option.

over 1 year ago Marie responded:

Thank you @Amy :)

over 1 year ago Rose responded:

@Marie - aren't you the pot calling the kettle black? You are taken a back by the negative comments? Your second line reads "I am so over people complaining and whining." A bit negative, no? I am taken aback by people like you who call this whining and complaining. We, the whiners and complainers, as you have named called us, are trying to express our distaste for the bait and switch lottery that was run this year. The lottery process was changed without any disclaimer. We are also trying to express that our loyalty in the form of running countless NYRR races over the years should be acknowledged by allotting more local runners spots in the race. People are demanding the $5 back out of principle. Not because they want $5.

over 1 year ago Marie responded:

@Rose I understand we are all frustrated and I actually just read something on facebook about the new guidlelines for guaranteed entry next year which I copied and pasted below. By me stressing that people are complaining was not meant to be a negative comment and I apologize if it came off that way. Its just for the past two days reading everything it gets to a point that yes we are angry and now the next step is what can be done to make this a better experience for everyone. It is so stressful to apply early and knowing full well that it is a lottery and having that glimmer of hope that you will get picked but aren't. My post was more of me venting and I may have upset people and I am sorry.

New Opportunity for Guaranteed Entry in 2012
We have a very special plan in place for guaranteed entry in 2012: Any NYRR member as of January 31, 2011, who completes four of the five NYRR Half-Marathon Series races in 2011 (Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, Staten Island) will be eligible for guaranteed entry to the 2012 race. Stay tuned for details.

over 1 year ago Idiot Runner responded:

Marie - that's great for next year. The opportunity right now is to get some questions about the process in front of Mary W, which is pretty cool. Hopefully this will help them be more transparent moving forward, which is what we all want. Again: people are upset because they feel like they were charged money for a lottery that turned out to be rigged. That's not right. And bear in mind that the revenue generated from the lottery could be in the region of $100,000 or so (assuming 20,000 of the 30,000 total applicants applied for the lottery), so it's actually a pretty big deal.

Anyhow - the point of this thread was to collect questions for NYRR. There's some great ones above. Anyone got any more?

over 1 year ago Rose responded:

@Marie - thanks, I appreciate the comment. Now on to the solution - do you think it's feasible for people to run 4/5 of the Borough Halves? What if 2 sell out before you can register?? What if one sells out and you've done 3 and the last one is the same weekend as your full marathon?? It seems a little too restrictive given the "9+1" option for the NYC Full - there are about 25+ races to choose from so if you are sick, injured or get shut out of a race that sells out, you can still get to the 9 races...

over 1 year ago Melissa responded:

I understand that with a lottery not everyone can get it certainly seems, it was done differently this year. If that was the case, NYRR should have been more open with its members. I think this would have avoided a lot of the backlash.

Moreover, it seems that being a local runner and a member count more against you when you're signing up for popular races. Other organizations show at least some positive bias toward their local members - in New York it feels like we're worse off because of it. And yes, a lot of us really appreciate the great 9+1 program, myself included, but this is hardly a giveaway. I appreciate that as an organization you have a lot of things to balance but I think, particularly after the NYC Half Lottery, your members sometimes feel like we are last to be considered.

Lastly, if you do build a guaranteed entry program through the half-marathon grad prix series who would you deal with the increase in interest in these other races? Brooklyn is already very popular, and sells out quickly with local runners. Will the new guaranteed program attempt to solve one problem while creating a whole host of others??

over 1 year ago Mary B. Housel (Facebook) responded:

Ok, I have been corrected- the Manhattan Half and the NYC Half are two different Halfs- and the NYC Half is the Lottery mess that we're all up-in-arms about, and NOT part of the Grand Prix...

However, I do have to stick to my guns on my opinion about the lottery selection and all that I said- and maybe, why not do some preferential treatment for those dedicated NYRR members, or those who have done the other 5 Grand Prix Half Marathons? Why should the NYC Half be so special? And if it is so much more special, then WHY?? Is it supposed to be like a Mini-NY Marathon or something? It just doesn't make sense...

Hope I didn't confuse anyone with my comments, opinions, ideas. :-/

over 1 year ago Marie responded:

@Idiot Runner OK here is my question for NYRR:

Can you get guaranteed entry next year if you are not accepted this year? or do you get guaranteed entry if you have been denied entry a certain amount (1,2,3 years)

over 1 year ago Terry Bennett (Facebook) responded:

I think that NYRR needs to provide some some basic information about how the lottery was run. Very simply, (i) what were NYRR's various categories of lottery entrants and (ii) what were the odds of winning a spot in each category? NYRR should be able to post that information immediately. With it, members can start to assess the process. Considering that this was a lottery with an entry fee, this would seem to be the least that NYRR could do. It would also good to know why the drawing date was seemingly delayed.

over 1 year ago Mary B. Housel (Facebook) responded:

I appreciate Marie posting about the 4/5 Half races...and definitely understand what Rose is saying about being shut out of the Halfs in the Grand Prix Series because of them closing up so quick- so maybe the suggestion of the having other race options to qualify for the NYC Half...maybe something similar to the 9+1 for the NY Full Marathon? Perhaps having a similar number or type of qualifying races for the NYC Half marathon- like the Full- which will at least better your odds, or give guaranteed entry for the NYC Half? I guess it would depend on if the NYRR decide to do the lottery still, or do first-come-first serve...

Which would be the more preferred method- first-come-first-serve, or lottery?

over 1 year ago Mary B. Housel (Facebook) responded:

@Marie I like that idea- guaranteed entry to NYC Half after x number of times being denied (similar to the NY Full Marathon)...

over 1 year ago Dana Donadio responded:

I think that full disclosure is necessary regarding the number of spots available and the percentage of those spots allotted to each of the local/national/and international lottery segments. (Is it broken up evenly? or is it a 10%/30%/60% split?)

I think registration fees should be refunded to members if they are not accepted.

I do not think that a 4/5 half-marathon solution is best for the reasons mentioned by other runners that the dates, course, and times of these races tend to change. I also believe this excludes runners/members who are only able to compete in 2-3 half-marathons a year, yet run plenty of other shorter-distance NYRR races.

I would love to automatically qualify with my time, but like so many others I am not there yet. If interest in NY is disproportionately high, then either segments of the lottery should reflect that in favor of NYRR members and NYers in general, or the lottery should not be segmented at all.

over 1 year ago Sara responded:

Hey NYRR-- This doesn't have much to do with yesterday's lottery, but it has to do with the half itself: PLEASE create a DEFERRAL OPTION. I ran last year and (generally) had a good time, but I had severe ITBS going into the race and limped through the course barely able to walk.

Why? Because I knew (a) I was lucky enough to get a lottery spot in 2010, and demand would surely go up, and (b) given that, I knew it might be my last chance to run it in the years ahead, since there is no deferral option as there is with the marathon. I would have gladly paid another $90 to defer (hear that cash register sound?) and save myself the agony of injury. Even from a business perspective, the option for paid deferral (like the ING NYC Marathon) is a no-brainer. Please include it.

over 1 year ago francis responded:

I think NYRR needs to tell everyone how they manage the lottery process for the Half and Full marathons. Who runs it, how are they selecting runners, who audits the lottery, what % of NYRR members, NYC, NJ, CT and PA residents get in, how many international and national runners get in. With their database, they can easily create a report, export to Excel and do a formula to figure out the %.

The paid members of NYRR have been patient and understanding, but Mary needs to remember her globalization drive, while very nice, is percieved as leaving us ias an afterthought. What is particiularly galling is Anthony Travel still have opening when members are lcoked out.

She is the CEO of a paid membership organization and needs to remember that and respect this. I feel she has lost any respect for us members by focusing her attention and efforts to woo the elites and international runners. In essence she works for us, the paid membership.

over 1 year ago Melissa Schulz responded:

Dear NYRR,
Oh how disappointed I am in you.
I've been a loyal fan and member since 1995.
I helped make you who you are today! I've blogged about you, sang your praises, bought friends and family memberships for the holidays, single-handedly convinced MANY to get involved.
You host some of the best races in the world and have the best organized marathon hands down.
In the 90s I bought a lifetime benefactor membership because I believed in you and wanted to support you and help your organization grow. I had friends who've worked for you through the years, and if they ever criticized, I came to your defense. I ever came to your defense during races, when I overheard other runners criticizing.

But you've turned your back on your loyalists... It's sad to me that not only is my entry not free (even as a benefactor), but I don't have preference for getting in to races and I have to pay a non refundable application fee when you haven't been transparent about how you determine who gets in?

If you're asking for advice, I'm happy to give it:
1. Why not have 2 races - one for "out of towners" and one for NYC locals? You could get great PR out of it... there could be a contest to see which contingency is faster (based on average pace)!

2. This application fee for the NYC Half is nonsense, and if it's not, why not explain why it's necessary? Why don't the lucky folks who get in pay the application fee and refund it to those who don't get in? Do those costs help cover the cost of the race, because it's outside of Central Park? Are you losing money on this race? If so, perhaps you could communicate that to your members - it would go a long way.

3. Hire a new communications director, or give the one you have permission to communicate to your members. As the number of Facebook and Twitter rants exploded, NYRR was completely silent, which allowed the anger to fester. This will go down in history as a case study in how NOT to do social media. (I'm almost expecting to see the article in AdWeek next week!)

You need to improve your customer relations. A couple of weeks ago I sent an e-mail about my dissatisfaction over the jingle bell jog being yet another race that benefactors must pay for and got a very snippy e-mail response. So I wrote back a second time and got no response at all.

Your people are your brand and right now, as evidenced by the tweets, facebook post and negative blog entries, your brand is tarnished.

Please right this wrong and show us you care. I know you do, you just haven't done a very good job of communicating it.

Thanks for listening,
Melissa Schulz
PS - I've worked in advertising and marketing for almost 20 years. I don't come cheap, but if you need my professional help, feel free to contact me!

over 1 year ago Idiot Runner responded:

Hey everyone, in case you haven't seen by now, NYRR posted a set of FAQs on their site a little earlier tonight, that tried to address some of the concerns. They were certainly fully honest about the numbers, which I think is commendable.

Take a look, here: http://www.nyrr.org/races/2011/nychalf/faq.asp

I'm gonna do a quick recap post on it soon, then move on to actual running stuff. I have that 15k to run on Sunday, after all ;)

over 1 year ago SP responded:

1. For one thing they did themselves a disservice by making such a big deal of the lottery and how everyone should apply. It likely resulted in 1000's of application from people who would otherwise might not have considered it. Initially I thought I would pass because of the high cost of registration. But after months of incessant promotion I finally thought: OK, maybe I should do it. In the end, I am wondering if this was not just a way to collect a maximum number of $5 lottery tickets... In the end the "losers" (local NYRRC members) ended up subsidizing the "winners" (tourists) to come here.

At the end of the day I suspect it is all about the money, and the NYRRC justifies closing city streets by claiming to bring so many tourist $$ for the city businesses. This is nice, but should not be the number one concern of a local running club.

2. Clearly state how many spots are available for the lottery at the time of registration and what are the likely odds, considering last year's numbers. If you had told me that my odds were 1/10 and therefore the odds of both my wife and I to get in were 1/100, I would not have applied.

There is obviously no need to advertise the lottery like you are desperate for applicants. I don't think the lottery should be a way to finance the race, unless there is actually some prizes to win other that the right to pay $95 to run.

3. Maybe you should call it the NYC Half Marathon Invitational...